top of page

CEOs & Coaches Alike

Keynote speaker. Consultant. Lawyer. Salesman. Teacher. Workshop leader. Author. There truly is nothing Joey Coleman cannot do. His books, Never Lose a Customer Again and Never Lose an Employee Again, keep climbing the charts and continue to change the world alongside their author, Joey Coleman.


In this episode of TechTalk Podcast, Brad Cost, Dr. Jay Greenstein, DC, and Joey Coleman sit down to discuss:


  • The crazy world of the NFL and college football.

  • Joey Coleman’s best-selling book, Never Lose an Employee Again.

  • The stark similarities between the two when it comes to recruiting, onboarding, retaining and overall leadership.




Retaining coaches (or lack of!)


  • 1:18 - Brad. "Every week throughout the college football season, Jay and I talk about what happened during the week at the end of the TechTalk episode. It's important to us. Jay and I are both college football fans. Our guest, Joey, is too and sometimes our teams play each other. We fight, we argue, we make fun, but we're still best friends. We thought it'd be fun to come together and have our episode be about the crazy world of football. How did the college series end up? What the heck is happening to the NFL? My question is, will there be any coaches left by the end of the week?"


  • 2:08 - Jay. "I just found out today that Belichick is out, right? Obviously, I know about Rivera. Thank God because mediocrity is his symbol. Who else is out?"


  • 2:22 - Joey. "Belichick is out as of this morning. Pete Carroll at the Seattle Seahawks out yesterday. The coach at Tennessee, Vrabel. I will fully disclaim right now. My favorite professional sports team is the team that had the most players that went to the University of Notre Dame. It changes every year, so I do not pay as much attention to professional football. For anybody that's still listening, who hasn't already turned off the podcast, don't miss the relevance of this discussion to your practice and to your world. Because I think what we are seeing in the world of college sports and professional sports is a landscape for the concept of what it means to recruit, onboard, and retain top talent. Whether that's on the field or in the coach's box, this is a challenge that is plaguing every business on the planet. We're just seeing it magnified in the sports arena in a way that we never have."


National Championship: Michigan vs. Washington


  • 3:26 - Jay. "I think about that a lot. One key difference for our businesses is that we're not a college football program. We don't have thousands of people coming to us wanting to be part of our company necessarily, but there’s a major relevance to the retaining piece, like the transfer portal. We’ll talk about that later. For first, what did you think about the outcome of the college football playoff?"


  • 4:18 - Brad. "I kept wanting Washington to come back, or at least get into the game. I think Michigan played better, but I kept rooting for Washington’s comeback. I'm not sure their quarterback got into the game to play against Michigan. In the end, I think Michigan deserved to win."


  • 5:13 - Joey. "A couple of things. At a high level, number one, it’s good for college football to have a school other than Alabama, Georgia, or Clemson win the national championship. Full stop. That is a good thing. That's not being anti-Georgia, anti-Alabama, anti-Clemson. Competition stays exciting based on the belief that on any given Saturday, any team can win and if you string enough of those together, you can become a national championship. I love it. Number two, it broke my heart a little bit to watch the way that the sign stealing was handled and the way it’s still panning out. For me, it put an asterisk next to the national championship. When this story first broke, the University of Michigan was denying it, standing by their guard, calling it ridiculous. But, in a matter of days, their legal court filings changed. As a lawyer, I know there's lots of hullabaloo when you're on a microphone in front of the news, but when you’re in front of a judge, the game changes. They were coming against the Big 10 hard. Then suddenly, they agreed to a suspension to make this go away. If you look at the filing, it is abundantly clear there was a change in the evidence against them. They did not just compromise. They realized what was stacked against them and decided to walk away. I think we are going to see Jim Harbaugh leave Michigan because he's not going to want to be there when these results come in and I believe there has never been a better time for him to leave. The question becomes: when you leave a job, do you want to leave at the top, the middle, or the bottom? Harbaugh will never be higher than he is right now. With the way college football is changing, the likelihood of Michigan running the table 15 and 0… we are not going to see that again anytime soon. If I'm Harbaugh and his advisors, I'm saying now's the time to go."


  • 8:06 - Brad. "I would move to Seattle if I was Harbaugh. I think that's probably a good fit."


  • 8:13 - Jay. "They made a very successful transition from a super successful run, although it pains me to say that about Pete Carroll at USC, given all the games that he was able to beat my team, the Fighting' Irish. That vibe is already there. The only reason I'm hesitant is there is clearly some disconnect between the ownership and Pete Carroll's philosophy. My gut instinct is that Pete Carroll's philosophy to coaching is closer to Jim Harbaugh's than not. If that vibe isn't working with the ownership in Seattle today, I don't know that it's going to get better with Harbaugh. But again, who knows? They're two different people and everybody brings their own worldview to the table."


  • 9:13 - Jay. "You know, my biggest nightmare was watching Michigan win, aside from them beating Ohio State. Washington’s quarterback, Penix, was so off his game. They've come back in games before and he's been an accurate passer on the move in the pocket. He just had a terrible game."


  • 9:29 - Joey. "I think he was injured, Jay. When they had the camera on him between plays, he kept holding his side, his hip, his leg. I think he was fighting through a boatload of injury for most of the second half."


  • 9:51 - Jay. "Oh wow, I missed that. Maybe that's true, but still equally frustrating. We have some friends that are Michigan fans and I congratulated them after the win because I understand what it feels like to win a national championship, right Joey? We know that feeling! I'm sorry you might not know it, Brad. Anyways, I congratulated them, but the next day, I'm like, did you hear that Harbaugh is getting suspended again because they found out he was paying the refs to not call holding penalties on Washington? Then, I sent them pictures of jerseys being pulled off these guys backs. It was so frustrating to watch and, as it relates to Harbaugh, my second worst nightmare is that the new owner of the Washington football team hires him as the head coach. I don't know that I could be a fan."


Technology in the football space.


  • 10:47 - Joey. "That would break your heart to have to root. Jay's allegiance would change overnight. I totally agree with you. It's interesting you mentioned the refs, Jay, because we've had a year of hugely problematic and missed calls in the NFL. It surprises me that, in 2023 and now 2024, we haven't figured out that college football, the NCAA, the NFL haven't figured out better ways to incorporate technology into refereeing. There are so many different things they can do. In fencing, you have a haptic vest that, when you’re hit with the sword, it lights up and records the touch. Why can't we do similar type involvements with the helmets to see if it was targeting or with the jerseys to feel if they're being pulled at a certain level or for a certain amount of time? There are ways we can incorporate technology to change this conversation."


  • 12:17 - Jay. "How about ball placement? Whether the person's in or out of bounds? Put sensors in the shoes. They're either in-bounds or out-of-bounds. They either made the first down or not. It's ridiculous."


  • 12:26 - Brad. "That's the thing that gets me. A common sensor today with four antennas on the field can tell, within an eighth of an inch, where that ball landed. I hate it when I see a ref move that ball, just a little to the right or left. It’s obvious on TV that it isn’t right."


  • 12:48 - Joey. "All of us at home can see that they're placing it in the wrong spot. How can I be a thousand miles away and see that he got the first down, but you're in front of him and you can't see that he got the first down?"


  • 12:59 - Brad. "Or he's walking crooked when he's going back to the hash mark to set the ball down. Guys, that's simple technology today. And why not? I don't quite understand. Maybe they're trying to keep that traditional sense to it. But then, have you seen the commercials for the new AT&T helmet?"


  • 13:17 - Joey. "You mean, did I cry watching the national football game? I'm watching the game, turned to my wife, and said, I didn't think I was going to cry during a commercial. I have to admit, I try to be conscious of the amazing privilege I have and of the fact that other folks are leading lives that I can't even begin to imagine. I thought it was one of the best commercials that I've seen in a long time, in terms of a sporting commercial."


  • 14:04 - Brad. "Five or six years ago, we had an Oklahoma State University player that was deaf, and we had a person on the sideline signing the play call to him. He was an excellent player. If you think about playing that game and not being able to hear… oh my gosh! He was an outstanding player. Martel Van Zant. He played corner, which is a serious position, but think about how he and the team had to prep for plays. They didn’t just push him off to the side and guide him. He was an active, good player. Anyways, I think that was amazing technology and that's welcome, but there are hundreds of other things that we could do today."


Saban’s retirement & the future of the SEC/Big 12.


  • 15:20 - Jay. "So, guys, we had great semifinal games. It was awesome and, in one of those semifinal games, thankfully Alabama lost. Now I understand Saban is no longer the coach of Alabama and I’m not shocked. He's getting up there in age and he's done his deal. He's the best that ever coached. I'm curious about who is going to replace him."


  • 18:44 - Joey. "I have to admit… Let me be clear, and this may offend some of my fellow Notre Dame fans. When offensive coordinator, Tommy Rees, decided to leave Notre Dame to go to Alabama, a lot of people thought that was disloyal. I didn't blame Tommy Rees at all. If you have the chance to go work with literally the greatest head coach in the history of college football, you take that chance. I agree with you, Jay. He's been there, done that, has nothing left to prove. It does bring me back to that conversation I mentioned earlier with - do you go out on the top, the middle, or the bottom? Here's the thing. Nick Saban took a team that shouldn't have made the playoffs because the players on the field were not of the caliber of the competition they were going against, yet they almost pulled it off. When it comes time to retire, do you retire after your best speech or a mediocre speech? How do you think about that and are you deciding in advance? Did Nick Saban and his wife know that this was the last season at the beginning of the season? How does that affect the messaging you're giving to recruits? One of the things I love about Notre Dame is Marcus Freeman, the head coach, is very, very clear about recruiting to Notre Dame. They are not recruiting you to your position coach or to the other players on the team. They are recruiting you to come to this program because you're making a 40-year decision that has a 40-year impact and return on investment for you. More coaches need to do that. It's why I'm a fan of the transfer portal because when the landscape changes, players should be able to change because the rules of the game have changed."


  • 21:33 - Brad. "I'm not quite there with you, Joey. I really want to see what the transfer portal is loading up this year because we have a lot of folks transferring. NIL to me, and I know you believe in the NIL and that is ramping up at Oklahoma State, but it’s sucking away tons of donation money to the general athletic fund. What kind of impact is that going to have? Before we get into that, I want to go back to Alabama though and say, the SEC is changing in a big way next year. What do you think is going to happen? Do you think Alabama is being neutralized or are they're still going to be the premier-tier team in the SEC as all these other teams, like Texas and OU, come in? What do you think's going to happen?"


  • 22:33 - Jay. "Alabama cannot have the same type of year that they've had in the past with Saban due to the coaching change. I just don't believe they can sustain it. To Joey’s point about going out on top, maybe Saban’s record wasn't on top, but it was one of his best coaching jobs and he felt like this is the best he can do. It's going to be great having Texas and Oklahoma in the SEC, and there's really nothing we can do about it, so I'm just excited to see it. Even with the changes in the NIL and the transfer portal. I'm a traditionalist, but it is what it is. I'm just going to adapt and enjoy as much as I can. It's going to be fun to watch these teams play each other, like Ohio State and these ex-Pac-12 teams. I want to go to Oregon to watch a game. I'm going to the Rose Bowl in 2025 to watch them play UCLA. I'm excited for it."


  • 23:43 - Joey. "I'm excited for two reasons. One, totally selfish and one, not. The one that's totally selfish is Notre Dame has played a non-conference schedule and has been independent from day one. They travel all over the country. I am excited to see the performance of these other schools that don't deal with red-eye flights, with two different time zones in 24 hours, with coast-to-coast travel. That's the standard Notre Dame's been playing under for a long time and that's tough. I'm really interested to see how these other teams hold up with that type of environment as the geographies increase. Earlier this season, Chip Kelly said all college football should be independent and I thought, what is an interesting idea. What would happen if we did away with conferences altogether and everybody was independent? Now with the change in the playoff schedule and the bowl games, this whole “winning your conference” talk just doesn’t matter anymore. Why are we perpetuating conferences that, historically, were based on geography, but now they’re just based on money? What if we changed it up? Now, the problem is, if everyone became independent, it would exacerbate the problem. The times are changing and it's very interesting time to be a fan of college football."


  • 25:38 - Jay. "In the Big 10 season, when we’re playing teams like Indiana, it's hard to get excited about that. I love those big games where you're going against Texas or Oregon. Those are so much more fun. Brad, what do you think? You guys are left in the Big 12 with the Little Sisters of the Poor that you're playing a couple of times, right? You don't have the same quality of teams that you're going up against. What are your thoughts about the upcoming season and conference play?"


  • 26:08 - Brad. "Well, we're bringing in Arizona, Arizona State, Cincinnati, Utah, and they’ve done reasonably well. The Big 12 might be a little more difficult honestly. Take OU out, who has been the dominant force, like Alabama in the SEC, and it might get more competitive. We might see some better ballgames. I love Oklahoma State. I go to as many games as I can because I love college football, but I've learned ups and downs. It's just part of it. But we've had amazing talent and great success. You've been watching the Steelers - their quarterback was a successful quarterback at Oklahoma State. We've had players that have gone on to be starting players in the NFL. I'm sad, Jay, you were here in-and-out of Oklahoma so quick last time. Next time, we're going to get you a tour of the stadium and the facility. You'll be blown away. We have a lot of money in the conference, and that's part of what you mentioned earlier, Joey. There's still money tied to the networks and the sports media. I don't know how that would work on a nationwide basis, but they make a ton and have big impact in regional aspects."


Power of money.


  • 28:03 - Joey. "Absolutely. If you don't think that college sports, especially college football, is all about the Benjamins, you haven't been paying attention. Whether that's right or wrong is a separate conversation from the reality of the way it currently is, and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. For decades now, I have been very proud to know NBC as the Notre Dame Broadcasting Company because that's what the initials actually stand for. I've been very comfortable and happy with that unique, amazing thing. You mentioned something earlier, Brad, that I want to flag. The concern I have about all the money going to football is what does that do to the other sports? I'm a big believer in the power of sport, of learning teamwork, of healthy competition, of what that teaches you. When we see all this money funneling to college football, the other sports at colleges get their funding cut, and that is a net negative for our society and the world of sports. Football's great, but we're really one of the few countries on the planet where football is king and there's a lot of other sports. I like the idea of a society where we can compete globally. We have to still be funding sports, like soccer, baseball, softball, field hockey and lacrosse, that are played outside of the United States that are paying the price with all the money that's going into college football."


  • 29:49 - Brad. "There's no question. At Oklahoma State, that money is trickling down to the not-so-known athletes because we're pretty successful at those other sports. When it comes to national titles, Oklahoma State holds a lot of them in wrestling, in equestrian and more! In my wife's program there, she's had some less-known athletes give her their $1000 NIL money that they received for a donation. That was my concern when I said I'm not a big fan of NIL. What is that going to do to the rest of the sports? I get joy out of all the other sports that are out there, like basketball and Oklahoma State has had our share of successful seasons. With football, we have an amazing facility and a great coach that keeps it interesting. We’re building a program that your teams have been building for decades. Oklahoma State has spent the last decade starting that national team, but you look at OU and they have three or four decades of national titles. They have this big history under their belt that we have to play against. That's an entire separate league in my eyes - to be able to recruit that kind of team, to have chemistry every year and to keep it together to have a string of national championships. To be an Ohio State, a Notre Dame, an Alabama. That takes tons from both the players in the schools and the fans."


  • 31:51 - Joey. "Brad, I totally agree with you. That is in our instant gratification society and is something often missed. The benefit of making slow steady progress. The investments of doing something over time to build a legacy. Two things that I think about NIL that are positive. Number one, in every other aspect of life, if you have a name, an image, or a likeness that has status, and you are contributing and creating more value because of how you show up, you have the opportunity to be compensated. If you are an amazing chiropractor and you come into an office, we will pay you more because you're amazing, you brought patients, you have a fan following. If you're an incredibly organized and talented office manager, you can get promoted, pay raises, bumps. This is why the NCAA drives me insane. This fiction of athletes being paid with their education. These players are making their schools billions of dollars based on their behavior on the field and I love that they're now getting a piece of the pie. I also love the way NIL has shifted in the last 18 to 24 months. We first saw a bunch of high school players getting millions and millions of dollars to come to a school. Now, we're seeing two uses of NIL that I think is brilliant. A retention fund. The stay-and-play funds. It’s helping when players are intrigued to go to the NFL because schools can give those players more money now to convince them to stay for another year. I love that. I also love that it is now akin to more proof in the pudding when you're getting paid. You're getting paid in the transfer portal. You've gone to a school that maybe wasn't an Ohio State, a Notre Dame, an Oklahoma State, and now you're in a situation where players from a D3, D2 or a lower ranked D1 school who performed for two years are being recruited higher. Look at what Sam Hartman did at Notre Dame. The rumor is Sam Hartman was well over a million dollars to come and play one year at Notre Dame. Why? Because he had built a track record and a reputation at Wake Forest. That allowed him to go in. I like the idea of coaches being able to place bets with a little more certainty based on performance at the collegiate level instead of trying to imagine how performance as a 17-year-old transfers to the college field. It's a big challenge."


  • 34:32 - Jay. "I agree. We just got the Ole Miss running back who gained over a thousand yards for the last two seasons with 20+ touchdowns. We got that kid and he's getting paid, but he earned it. That's great, but it makes me think about what happens to these kids when they get injured? How is this a great insurance policy for them that, God forbid, they have an injury or they don't go as high in the draft or a coaching change happens, and now they're not playing as much or they don't have the same results. Some level of financial safety nets could be really beneficial. There are positives and, again, it's here to stay. I just hope they continue to make these types of decisions around how it's utilized to benefit the players both short and long term."


Double standard of the transfer portal.


  • 35:20 - Brad. "What about putting some bumper rails on it to say you can't enter the portal until after the season?"


  • 35:30 - Joey. "Fine, if we do the same thing for coaches. This is the thing that drives me crazy. The double standard of coaches being able to come and go all they want with no problem. But if you're a player, you have to be loyal. We need to think more strategic. The problem is, they rolled all of this out, frankly, because they were forced to. They lost a court case. Most of the coaches didn't want to do this. They didn't want to pay their players. You look at somebody like Nick Saban, he doesn't like NIL or the transfer program. It's good that he's retiring because the writing's on the wall. This is the reality going forward. I understand there are lots of problems with it, but we are in the messy, innovative stage where we've rolled out a new technology, a new way of approaching things, and a lot more things are going to break before they work well."


  • 41:00 - Brad. "We've been talking about players opting in, opting out, seasons being destroyed because players leave. I'm assuming once they enter the transfer portal, they can't play for the team, right? Or is that an option of the coach? How does that work?"


  • 41:14 - Joey. "I have to admit, I'm not 100% sure how it relates to the transfer portal, but I think what we did see this bowl season is a lot of players opting out. You look at Florida State, irritated and understandably so, that they didn't make the playoff and around 30 players didn't play. There will always be players that opt out. I think personally, we need to explore why are they opting out? Now, let's take Sam Hartman, the quarterback at Notre Dame this year. He opted out from the bowl game and a lot of people were offended because he was paid all this money to come and play, and then he doesn't even play in the bowl game. That's one perspective. Another perspective is, this is a guy who has a chance to potentially make an NFL roster and doesn't want to get hurt. He knows he's not going in the first round, probably the fourth or fifth or sixth round. Is the performance in a bowl game really going to make the difference for him? Maybe yes, maybe no. I looked at it as him doing a favor to our next quarterback in line, Steve Angeli. Sam Hartman's decision to opt out meant we got to see an entire game led by the backup quarterback. A player opting out of the bowl game isn't necessarily a bad thing for the team if you've got someone ready to stand up and perform. The bigger question is one of team morale. What does that do to the other players when they feel that their brothers in arms, who they've been in the trenches with all season, are bailing in the final game? There was a player from Notre Dame years ago who got injured in the bowl game and saw his draft stock fall dramatically. At the end of the day, these players, their bodies, and their ability to perform on the field is what is going to allow them to, in many cases, make life-changing money at the next level. The solution to this is to take some of the NIL money and some of these school endowments to buy insurance policies for the players and drop a $10 million insurance policy on the quarterback because, if he gets hurt in the bowl game and he can't go on to play in the NFL, insurance is going to pay $10 million. Schools could afford to carry these policies for the whole team, and they could probably get a discount if they did it for every player. That would solve a lot of this problem because I don't blame the players for questioning whether they should go play in a game that doesn't matter to the national championship, for getting a ring, for bragging rights. I don't blame them."


  • 44:18 - Brad. "Let's create the BJJ Insurance Corporation tomorrow. Sounds like a great idea to me."


  • 44:22 - Jay. "Let's do it baby. Insurance companies make a ton of money. It’s so interesting because I'm watching these games, and the postseason has now become next season's preseason. We're seeing the players who are going to play next year. When we saw our backup quarterback play and it was a disaster, that's when we knew we had to go get Will Howard in the transfer portal. There are some advantages, but on one hand, it sucks that these games have become even more meaningless. On the other hand, one of the other solutions is the fact that we've got 12 teams where it's going to matter next year. We're not going to see as much of it with the elite teams because they're in. There's a bigger dance that they're going to get to participate in, which I cannot even tell you how excited I am for a 12-team playoff. I've been waiting for this for my entire life."


  • 45:16 - Joey. "I can't tell you how excited I am to have teams be forced to come to South Bend, Indiana, in December, when there's a foot of snow on the ground, and have to play there. There are teams like USC, who will only play Notre Dame at home if it's in September, but they always want Notre Dame to come out there in November. Come on! Deal with the weather like the schools that live in the weather."


Employment in 2024’s society.


  • 45:45 - Jay. "We've been talking a lot about like these issues related to coaching changes, like retirement, coaches being fired, succession planning. How does Alabama ensure that they've got the right succession plan for saving? Because I don't think this was news to the administration in Alabama. They had to know something. You've got great context around this industry as it relates to talent management because you wrote another bestselling book, Never Lose an Employee Again. It's an amazing book and I'd love to hear your ideas."


  • 46:30 - Joey. "Jay, you're too kind. Here's the thing. If you think this conversation is all about college football, you've respectfully you've lost the plot. This is about the state of employment in our society in 2024. We live in one of the most fascinating, stressful, trying, challenging, adventurous times for employers and employees that has ever existed on planet Earth. There is more money at play. There is more war for top talent. There is more transient behavior by top talent. There are people that are shifting, that are working one place that quote unquote should be loyal but are bolting to go to a competitor. They're jumping to an entirely different industry. This is facing every organization on the planet. The question then becomes what do we do? Well, we've got to get more strategic in how we think about our people, about our teams. I was on a call the other day, and somebody mentioned their ‘staff.’ No! Staff is something you carry when you're going on a hike. It is not a human being that is on your payroll. I like the analogy of a team. Why? Because I think most employers, in whatever type of business you run, need to behave more like college coaches. A college coach knows that there are a limited number of high school football players that are going to be able to perform on their team. They're recruiting from a smaller pool already. They know that they're competing against a lot of other amazing opportunities that are pretty similar on paper. Yes, schools have their loyalties, and they have their fan base and alumni, but taking a snap at Notre Dame is not that different than taking a snap at Ohio State for a quarterback, right? There's a lot of similarities, so how do you distinguish yourself? How do you stand out in the crowd? College coaches know, at best, they're going to get six years from a player. If a player is really good, they're going to get three years before that player leaves and goes to the next level. Business leaders need to make that shift in their mental thinking, in their blueprint. They need to stop thinking that the person they are hiring is going to be with their practice for 10 years and instead believe this person's probably going to be with us three. How can I have them be part of this team? How can I build a playbook? How can I build a strategy around them being on the team for the next three years? Opposed to taking a year or two to get it figured out, then getting them into their groove in year three or four, and then by five or six, we'll be up and running. They're going to be gone by then. You can't wait that long. Let’s look at Notre Dame's approach to this. By the way, how cool is it to have a head coach in college football that looks like he could line up right now and play ball? I have never understood how it is that we have morbidly obese coaches coaching these elite athletes. I'm very proud that Marcus Freeman looks like he can bench just as much as any of the players on the team. One of the things that I love when Marcus Freeman got hired as the head coach, and did his first interview as head coach, they asked him what his plan was? His response: it comes down to three things: recruiting, recruiting, recruiting. And I loved that. If you are going to solve your culture or take your practice and business to the next level, you've got to start at the top of the funnel with who you're bringing onto your team and how you're building your team. Notre Dame does something really fascinating with their recruiting. Everybody knows about getting the offer, right? In your chiropractic practice, you make offers to new employees too. There's a direct analogy here to how this works. When Notre Dame sends out its offer, the package comes in the mail, and it's a yellow package with a blue custom illustration on the front of it. Notre Dame's colors are blue and gold. The blue illustration is a portrait of the player. Now the style is unique, but if you've been to a football game at Notre Dame, you know that the programs that they sell on football Saturdays have a custom illustration on the front. They hired the same artist that does their program illustrations to do the packaging for their offer letter. Holy cow, I haven't even opened the package and I want to go play for the Irish. You open the package and inside is a beautifully designed four-color pop-up book. The top of it shows famous iconic buildings from the Notre Dame campus. The Basilica. The Sacred Heart. The Golden Dome. Touchdown Jesus. It's got the letter on the bottom with the gold embossed seal of Notre Dame, hand signed by Coach Freeman. It's got a road leading away from the letter that goes by national championships, Heisman trophies, the Fighting Irish Leprechaun, and the golden helmets. There's a little slide-out on the side that shows the player wearing a Notre Dame football uniform. It's an actual picture so they can envision themselves in the role if they accept the offer. Now, compare that to the typical offer letter that a business owner sends. A one-page Microsoft Word formatted, legalese rich bland letter about how they’re going to offer you this position and pay you this much. Sign on the bottom line if you want to come join us. My question for every business owner is, do your offer letters look like a memo from a lawyer, or does it look like an invitation to the next chapter in your life?"


  • 52:41 - Jay. "That's a great point. I've had the great honor and privilege to see Joey on stage talking about this and actually see what they do. It is just remarkable. I remember watching you at Cadre, Joey, and I was taking so many notes and I sending my Director of Operations texts and pictures on how we needed to level up our game."


  • 53:03 - Joey. "Well, Jay is very humble folks. In the book, Never Lose an Employee Again, there is one case study that is a chiropractor, and it is Kaizo Health with Dr. Jay Greenstein and his team. They are phenomenal at this stuff! You need to think strategically about how you recruit, how you onboard and what you're doing to retain. We mentioned NIL earlier and the fact that so many of these NIL funds are now pay-to-stay. I'm not saying that you should pay your employees more to retain them. I’m saying you should look and see what matters most to them. To a college player that's considering the NFL, one of the big draws of the NFL is making bank. When you've got an employee who's considering an offer from a competitor or another company, it's usually not that they're going to get more money. They might, and you got to pay your people fairly, but the reality is they usually see something in that other position that you could offer them too. You just haven't thought of it. Flexibility, autonomy, more responsibility, new skill sets, new opportunities. It's not just about the Benjamins when it comes to retention. It's about what are you doing to help chart the path for that employee's career that allows them to feel a sense of progress, a sense of accomplishment, a sense of forward momentum?"


Are you a good, adapting leader?


  • 54:33 - Jay. "When we think, at least in our businesses, about hiring people, it's all about alignment of core values. We just want the people that align with who we are, what we believe, how we behave. I wonder if, in the college world or even in the business world, where you see talent? Say you're a coach and you see talent, but there's no alignment of core values. Do you think that’s the responsibility of the coach? Can people change their core values based on the right coaching or mentoring? Do you take a chance on those people? Maybe football coaches do, but in the business world, how do we respond to that?"


  • 55:26 - Joey. "I think the question is, are you a good coach or leader? Let's take it out of football but keep it in sports. Look at Dennis Rodman. When Dennis Rodman went to play for the Chicago Bulls, most of the experts were saying he causes all kinds of problems and he's going to destroy the Bulls. There were two things in Chicago that made Dennis Rodman a different type of player. Phil Jackson, the coach, and Michael Jordan, his teammate. You read the stories that Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan and even Dennis Rodman tell. They got Rodman to harness his ability and align with the values of the team. You can do that. It was pretty much a full-time job for Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan. It's hugely important for your team to be in alignment with you and your values, and it's important for leaders to state what the organizational values are. It's important for leaders, if they haven't stated those from the outset, to work with the team to collectively decide what the values are. We're doing this exercise with my family. We're doing our family core values. My boys are now old enough at eight and ten that we can do this because previously the value would have been more candy or more cartoons. We're reached a point now where we're sitting down later this month to talk about our family's core values. Certainly, mom and dad are going to be leading and establishing what those values are, but we're going to be getting input from our players, our employees, our two kids about what they think the values should be. Because when your teammates contribute to the direction, the strategy, and the values, it's a lot easier for them to live those values than if you dictate them from on high and expect everybody to do it."


  • 57:37 - Brad. "Amazing. I'm interested to hear, when your boys turn 13 and 15, how those core values are going. Those were the points in time that my brain kept adapting daily."


  • 57:50 - Joey. "Absolutely. You bring up an excellent point as a leader of any type of business. You've got to keep adapting. The value that served you when you started your practice 22 years ago might not be the value that's going to serve you for the next 22 years. That doesn't mean you're bad. You're not a flip-flopper because you don't believe what you believed in the past. I hope not. The smartest people I know have strong beliefs loosely held. I want you to believe implicitly what you believe, but I want you to be open to the fact that the landscape has changed. I was on the phone the other day with a financial advisor, and he was talking about needing a good executive assistant, but they have to live near his office. Why? Because they need to come to work. Why? Because he has a desk for them. He wasn’t getting the point of my whys. My why is you have just limited the pool of potential talent in this remote hybrid work-world. You could have a world-class executive assistant who is doing your scheduling and managing your email, but they don't need to be sitting in front of you. That's your ego, your belief system, your history of last 40 years. The way your parents, or even grandparents, did it. We live in a different world. Come on folks. We can do better."


  • 59:39 - Brad. "I've learned so much because I was one of those traditional guys in business. I grew up in the work-world where everybody has to be in the desk at 8:00am. COVID, Dr. Jay Greenstein and Joey changed me."


  • 1:00:20 - Joey. "Here's the thing, you got to embrace, lead, and be part of the solution. If I were to offer a request, a challenge, a suggestion here at the beginning of 2024 for all the amazing leaders that I know that listen to this show, it would be this. You have a vision for how you want to increase your PBA this year or the total number of patients you're seeing or your profit and revenue. What's your vision for increasing your performance as a leader? You want to raise sales by 20%, but are you going to raise your ability to be a leader by 20%? You better. You want to retain more people, but are you going to raise your skills as a manager and as a leader to increase the retention? What are you doing to level yourself up? What are the podcasts you're listening to, the books you're reading, or the the coaching or training you're getting? How are you taking your leadership, worldview, and perspectives to the next level? That's not only useful in 2024, but it is also required if you want to stay in business."


Future of football.


  • 1:01:55 - Joey. "All right, let me ask one question of the group. Standing here at the end of the college football season, looking to next year, do you think your team is going to be the same, better, or worse? Where do you put your favorite college team on that metric? What is it going to look like next football season? Do you feel you're moving in the right direction? Plateauing? Sliding? Both?"


  • 1:02:30 - Brad. "I think Oklahoma State is going to have a better year next year. We've retained some talent. Our quarterback is staying. Ollie Gordon is staying. We’ve got the right chemistry and skills, so I think we'll be better. National title? I just don't know. That's new territory for Oklahoma State. But will the games be great? I think so. It may start out with me thinking it will be a long season, but then the next thing I know, we’ll be 10 in the nation! I'm very interested to see how OU and Texas leaving the conference will turn out. To be honest, I was shocked about Texas. I didn't get to go that bowl game, buy my wife went and said Texas played well. Maybe they've got their act together because they had some years that they were down. I'm interested to see what the conference is going to be like. A whole new ballgame for us."


  • 1:03:37 - Joey. "Texas may also have a retention issue at the quarterback position. They have a quarterback who is coming back when everybody thought he was going to leave. They've had the heir apparent waiting in the wings for a year. Is he going to sit around another year? Where's this going to go? I don't know. So far, he's saying he’ll stay, but we know with college football, if you don't like the way it is, just stay until tomorrow because it'll change."


  • 1:04:04 - Jay. "Exactly. I think that our team is going to be slightly better. The reason I say that is because I believe that they've got a lot of players coming back. TreVeyon Henderson is the key for us. If he comes back, I know we'll be better. To your point, Joey, about elevating your leadership skills, this was the first year that I saw Ryan Day lashing out, specifically at the quarterback. I think that's one of the reasons why McCord left. I've never seen him be that emotional on the sidelines. It was like everything was getting the best of him. I think it all stems from him not being able to beat Michigan and all that pressure. He's got to let that go to focus on his leadership game and to level up his coaching game because that Cotton Bowl game was a joke. We all could have coached a better game. I'm hoping they're going to be slightly better. What about Notre Dame?"


  • 1:05:24 - Joey. "I love it. I'm going to break it down into a couple things. I want to talk about recruiting, onboarding, retention, and leadership. Recruiting. Notre Dame just signed their third top 10 recruiting class in a row. That hasn't happened in almost two decades. Marcus Freeman is walking the talk. If you look at every interview with a recruit, when the reporters ask who their lead recruiter was, their answer is Marcus Freeman. No matter what position they're in. That is a game changer. When the head coach is your top recruiter, good things happen. Onboarding. We have more players. We have a high school player, CJ Carr, who's the grandson of Lloyd Carr, the famous Michigan man, who is going to be starting at Notre Dame as a freshman. He came in December to practice with the team before the bowl game, even though he was not going to be playing. He's going to be enrolling in January, so he came to start getting some reps. That's onboarding. They're thinking strategically about onboarding year-round and getting people in sooner rather than later. Retention. We had several players decide to stay. Part of that might've been NIL. Part of that might be just their belief that things are changing in the culture and that a national championship run is close at hands. Xavier Watts, who won the award for the best defensive player of the year with seven interceptions, decided to not go to the NFL. He is coming back for another year at Notre Dame. Their retention techniques are working. Last, but not least, leadership. Notre Dame just signed the offensive coordinator from LSU, who ran the number one point scoring offense of any team in the country last year and led the quarterback to a Heisman trophy, despite the LSU team not having the other tools on the field to make a long run. I am so excited that Mike Denbrock is coming in as the head coach at Notre Dame's defense because he finished the year top five, and it looks like we're retaining our defensive coordinator. We, theoretically on paper, are going to have the number one or number two offensive coordinator in the country and a top five defensive coordinator in the country under a leader, Marcus Freeman, who is all about the recruiting and being able to bench press what his linemen can. Notre Dame is going to have the best year they've had in decades next year."


  • 1:08:02 - Jay. "You're so good at painting the picture. I'm like getting goosebumps listening to you and I'm not even a Notre Dame fan! Alright, so here's the deal - whoever wins the national championship gets dinner bought by the other two."


Not goodbye… this is a see you later!


  • 1:08:24 - Brad. "Listen guys, this sounds like we're setting up for another college football podcast in November to see where all this is shaking out later this year."


  • 1:08:41 - Joey. "I love it. Guys, thanks so much for having me as a guest on the show again. I love that I get to be a repeat offender and come back to hang out with you guys. I love that we got to focus on college football today and I hope that you're amazing listeners were inspired to think a little bit differently about the kind of experiences you're creating for your team. I call them your team - not your employees, not your staff, not your administrators, not your CAs, not your office managers. Your team. We're all in this together, and you have the opportunity to make 2024 your best year yet."


Never Lose an Employee Again by Joey Coleman.


  • 1:09:27 - Brad. "Thank you, Joey. Plug your book really quick. Where can we get it?"


  • 1:09:30 - Joey. "Oh, you're too kind. The book is called Never Lose an Employee Again. If you like reading hardcover books, we've got a hardcover. If you like reading on your Kindle, we've got an eBook. If you've enjoyed the sound of my voice on this podcast, I narrate the audiobook. It's available wherever you like to get books online or offline. It's called Never Lose an Employee Again by Joey Coleman. I hope you'll check it out. If you're somebody who's enjoyed this conversation, sign up to experience the book. It allows me to have some interactions with you as a reader that I normally wouldn't get to have, and I think you'll enjoy it."


  • 1:10:07 - Jay. "Guys, it's a must read. Get the book."


  • 1:10:10 - Brad. "Yes! My team has been reading your books. I bought enough copies for them and they're checking them out and reading them. I hope I'm swaying some mentalities, so thank you for that experience. I appreciate all the things in 2023 that we got to do together and that we're doing in 2024. We got some crazy things coming up this year!"







bottom of page